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Touch-based Handhelds Turned Inside Out

Posted by CowboyNeal on Friday October 12, @02:27AM
from the good-touch-bad-touch dept.
Handhelds Microsoft Portables (Games) Technology
holy_calamity writes "Mitsubishi and Microsoft have made a prototype PSP-like handheld operated using a touch interface on the back — the idea is to give a firmer hold, prevent obscuring the screen and allow greater accuracy than the iPhone and others. The users fingers are shown as shadows on the screen so they can see what they're doing, making the device look transparent. As a video shows, it's far from market ready, but the design principle seems sound."

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Firehose:Touch-based handhelds turned inside out by holy_calamity (872269)
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  • Playing to the market

    (Score:3, Interesting)
    by AndroidCat (229562) on Friday October 12, @02:34AM (#20950153)
    (http://home.primus.ca/~ronsharp/tororg.html)
    Shadowy fingers behind the back of screen images should be a big advance for Porn Digital Assistants. I predict a win for this one.

      • Re:Mod parent down. Well-known religious bigot.

        (Score:2, Insightful)
        by bombastinator (812664)
        0 to godwin's law in .5 sec. I do so wish that was a record but sadly, no.

          • Re:Mod parent down. Complete idiot.

            (Score:2)
            by somersault (912633)
            Yeah way to back up your arguments. What's being religious got to do with being a bigot anyway? Or are you saying that people aren't allowed to consider certain practices wrong if their religion forbids it (not eating certain types of meat, not conducting in certain kinds of activity etc).

          • Re:Mod parent down. Complete idiot.

            (Score:2)
            by Random832 (694525)

            "Godwin's Law" is a way [...] to lessen the importance of the Holocaust by diminishing the evil of Hitler.
            Actually, it _prevents_ that by arguing against frivolous comparisons to such a terrible evil.

              • Re:Mod parent down. Complete idiot.

                (Score:2)
                by Random832 (694525)
                Regardless of anything else, you've failed to make your point for one specific reason - you never explained HOW AndroidCat is a religious bigot and/or hate group leader, for those to whom it isn't so "well-known" - a link to some evidence would have gone far. As it is, for those who don't already know how horrible he is (ASSuming, and that's a big ASSumption, that you're sincere in your ASSessment), you come off as a troll.

                *clicks AndroidCat's homepage link to try to get some idea of what you're on about* ...Oh.

                Scientology.

                nevermind. Let me know when your "religion" stops charging huge piles of cash for enlightenment, why don't you?

                • Re:Mod parent down. Complete idiot.

                  (Score:2)
                  by Random832 (694525)
                  As for the claims that the religion's beliefs are fake or insincere - well, Scientology certainly is not alone in having hard-to-swallow beliefs. Actually, some of them are quite a bit more plausible than some mainstream religions. But, when the religion was founded by someone whose day job was "Science Fiction author", and the secret meaning of life just so happens to involve wars between extraterrestrial aliens (nevermind that religions keeping their beliefs a secret at all is, you know, just a tad passé), and it just HAPPENS to require handing wads of cash to a centralized organization - well, can you really blame people for rolling their eyes at it?

                  But as far as most people are concerned... It's not the religious beliefs themselves that are a problem (it's no worse than most), it's the organization.

                • Re:Mod parent down. Complete idiot.

                  (Score:2)
                  by bombastinator (812664)
                  In deference to our own little Cotton Mather here, it is possible he or she is merely doing their job.

                  The organization in question here has previously been accused of assigning members to hound those it considers to be unfriendly to itself, both legally and, as in this case, socially. I'd also heard they more or less stopped doing it years ago, but oh well.

                  I personally suggest android cat make a copy of this thread to use in any legal matters they may need to take (such as a restraining order) at a later date.

                  • Re:Mod parent down. Complete Scientology

                    (Score:2)
                    by AndroidCat (229562)

                    A restraining order against an anonymous coward on Slashdot? Heh. Almost always, the people assigned to these sorts of duties are doing an "ammends project" to be allowed back "onlines" with the Cthurch of Scientology. They seem to get picked for the nasty jobs because (a) they're deniable as working for Scientology, (b) they're frequently judgment-proof because they have no assets or they're so dubious in sanity that no one would believe any liable and no damages could be proven. (There's also the danger that Scientology would help out in the legal fight in order to make it as time-consuming and expensive for a critic as possible. "The purpose of a lawsuit is to harass", in the words of L. Ron Hubbard.)

                    It's not worth my time because I can do more to help expose the organization in an hour of working on my media references page [primus.ca] than wasting months in court.

                    It's no accident that he Godwin'ed himself immediately. When Scientology starts flinging poo at anyone who dares criticize the "most ethical organization on the planet" (their words), they always reach for Hitler and the Nazis first: Germany [cnn.com] (which is why Cruise had recent troubles there), psychologists and psychiatrists [canada.com], newspapers [lermanet.com], journalists [thesun.co.uk], Germany again [solitarytrees.net] (Bringing your kids along to a Nazi uniformed protest is weird by anyone's standard yes?), and probably a lot more. It's no wonder that some people occasionally fling it back, where it seems to sit better (and when the poo sits...):

                    *"[..] This is nothing compared to what will happen when we start taking SPs out of the government. They are rightly afraid. So don't you be. Tomorrow belongs to us. Inevitably there are bumps in the road."
                    L. Ron Hubbard [youtube.com]

                      • Re:"Godwin" -- the last cry of religious bigots.

                        (Score:2)
                        by AndroidCat (229562)

                        Make fallacious, hero-worshipping appeals to the memes of USENET legends all you like.
                        • I was there in comp.org.eff.talk when Mike Godwin came up with his rule. You're no Mike Godwin.
                        • The critics of Scientology are a vast herd of ornery cats. How do I lead them?
                        • Why doesn't the Church of Scientology let members of the breakaway Free Zone [freezone.org] practice their voluntarily chosen beliefs as they wish?
                        • In spite of Scientolgy's efforts to equate themselves with the Jewish Holocaust, the state of Israel thinks that Scientology is a commercial enterprise rather than a religion. (As do a lot of other countries. [express.co.uk])
                        • Why do the at cause "Homo Novus" Dukes of the Auditor Elite [scientology-asho.org] ubermen of Scientology play the victim card all the time?
                        • Why do all the other leaders of Scientology around David Miscavige keep disappearing?

    • Re:Playing to the market

      (Score:2, Funny)
      by Anonymous Coward
      Funny thing is, that camera behind the device points to dark surface, meaning high contrast levels (and accuracy) can only be achieved if you hands are white. It seems apparent that Microsoft hates niggers or they would have made back-panel white.

      • Re:

        (Score:3, Funny)
        by SQLGuru (980662)
        So, they should color the back panel green and hope that certain alien species and plants are the only ones that don't want to play? Or maybe go with blue....and hope that flowers, fish, and birds don't want to play?

        Layne

  • Because...

    (Score:2, Insightful)
    by WithLove (1150737)
    Why would I want to watch a video on a screen I've been touching all day? This is a great idea, on several counts. Hands won't obstruct view of the screen while manipulating, greater accuracy, few fingerprints/scratches.

    Only con I can think of is being

    • Re:

      (Score:3, Interesting)
      by Paradigm_Complex (968558)
      You'd only need to orient yourself like that at first, while getting used to the device. With experience I figure it would be reasonable to gain a strong grasp of the spacing. While the tactile feedback in most devices limit what I can compare too, the N

      • Re:

        (Score:2)
        by Paradigm_Complex (968558)
        ...also you can see your fingers "through" the screen...

      • Re:

        (Score:2, Interesting)
        by WithLove (1150737)
        But the point is that with a DS you can see what you are "touching".

        I understand what you're saying about the fact that eventually you can just "know" where different points are on the control scheme, and I guess that's true to an extent. I just think t

        • Re:Because...

          (Score:1)
          by FlyingSquidStudios (1031284)
          You could easily get around this by sensing the heat from your fingertips before it feels the pressure, giving you the shadow before you touch the device. That way you can just hover your finger over it.

    • Re:

      (Score:2)
      by bwy (726112)
      Agreed. My only major hang up with my iPhone that can't be easily fixed is that the friggin screen is ALWAYS getting smeared up. I live in a warm weather climate and I have oily skin to boot. I'd really have to try the technology to see whether I could

      • Re:Because...

        (Score:2)
        by shmlco (594907)
        Stop touching yourself.

        Seriously. Palms and fingertips don't sweat or contain oil glands. It's only by touching your face, nose, or other parts of your body that oils begin to accumulate on the fingertips.

        And you might going to the bathroom and washing your hands after you eat.

        • Re:Because...

          (Score:2)
          by TheLink (130905)
          Maybe you can spend the whole day without reflexively preening your hair or scratching an itch. I think most of us can't.

          Anyway, when can we get "thought macro" controlled devices? We already wired up monkeys, rats, humans to control devices by thought. Now lets come up with something that can be safe for long term that achieves something similar.

        • Re:Because...

          (Score:2)
          by somersault (912633)
          If palms don't sweat then how come sometimes you can leave condensation (that quickly evaporates) on a book cover or desk from your palms? I don't think it's from palming other parts of my body.. :P

        • Re:Because...

          (Score:2)
          by jandrese (485)
          Where did you get that idea? Your hands and feet are actually the sweatiest parts of your body, and of course they extrude oils, otherwise your skin would be constantly dry and flaky, in fact they are the worst offenders because the skin is thicker there.

        • Re:Because...

          (Score:2)
          by SQLGuru (980662)
          Warm weather climate - that means more than likely moisture in the air (not always, but a good guess). Even if the hand isn't sweating (which I doubt it true but for the sake of argument will assume is true), there's a good chance that the temperature difference between the hand and the air is enough to provide mild condensation. I know that SOMETHING is going on because I live in a warm climate, I've dried my hands thouroughly, and watched them become moist while doing nothing but sitting there. It's either sweat or condensation

          Layne

      • Re:Because...

        (Score:1)
        by Kineticabstract (814395)
        Get the matte finish screen protector from the Apple store. It's very easy to apply, and is very resistant to fingerprints/oil smudges. Makes a big difference.

        • Re:Because...

          (Score:2)
          by bwy (726112)
          You're talking about the Power Support one? I almost bought it but resisted because I didn't know anything about it. Good to hear a first hand review- thanks!

    • Re:Because...

      (Score:2)
      by jimstapleton (999106)
      Actually, as a nearsighted individual, the first words out of my mouth when reading this were:

      "That is... FUCKING GENIOUS"

      I have a Nintendo DS, and one of the things I note about it frequently is that it is hard for me to use the touch screen because of having to put my fingers there, and how close I have to have my eyes to the screen to see. At least in my case, that would make such things useful for me.
      they
      Even a normal person, not having their hands not block part of the screen when using it, should be nice.

    • Re:Because...

      (Score:2)
      by porcupine8 (816071)
      You can see where your fingers are even when they're not touching the screen. It would probably take a little getting used to, but it's not like you'd be guessing at it even the first time you use it.

    • Re:Because...

      (Score:2)
      by 1u3hr (530656)
      It'd seem like with the "touching" on the back that you'd need to touch somewhere first to get your orientation, then touch where you want to go.

      That's why it shows finger silhouettes, not just dots for fingertips.

  • Good idea but...

    (Score:5, Insightful)
    by jimboindeutchland (1125659) on Friday October 12, @02:52AM (#20950213)

    While this looks like a great idea and all, I can't help but wonder how this will translate into smaller mobile devices. Something thie size of the iPhone (just to pick a random example ;) doesn't really have space for two hands. If you pick up your own mobile phone and drag your fingers around the back of it, you'll find it a bit more cumbersome than holding your phone in the palm of your hand and touching the front of the device.

    That said, this could be an important development for tablet PC's. From my perspective, it seems tablets suffer from a lack of keyboard input. Sure you can plug in a keyboard, but that kinda defeats the purpose. This looks like it could be the solution to that problem.

    Go these guys!

    • Re:Good idea but...

      (Score:2)
      by SQLGuru (980662)
      I have a Cingular 8125. I think this device size counts. I tried to find a way to hold it that would allow me to see the front and use my fingers comfortable on the back. Here's what I came up with. Thumb and index fingers on each side, middle fingers used for touch interface. It was quite comfortable and touching the screen did not feel awkward (I felt like I had full control over where I was pointing). I had the advantage of a firm grip and two fingers to navigate with.

      Single handed operation wasn't quite as comfortable, but it involved cupping the device in a vertical fashion holding it with my thumb and middle finger on the sides and using my index finger to point. It wasn't quite as "natural", but it wasn't impossible, either.

      Layne

  • typing

    (Score:5, Interesting)
    by phantomfive (622387) on Friday October 12, @02:55AM (#20950227)
    (http://cs.byuh.edu/~andrew | Last Journal: Friday October 12, @01:12AM)
    OK, I was thinking, "yeah, so what" until they got to the part where they type on the keyboard. You could seriously type on that thing as fast as on a regular keyboard, because of the way they laid it out. Hold it and type at the same time.

    But the webcam on the back is great. I love it. It's like headgear for handhelds. Want to be the master of geekiness? Look no further my friend: the handheld that neither fits in your hand NOR your pocket! Useless you say? Yes, but it's cool!!

    • Re:

      (Score:2)
      by QuantumG (50515)
      Or you could put real keys on the back in the same configuration, with the bumps on the F and J like we all know and love.

      I bet the only reason there is no products on the market like this is because of patents.

      • Re:typing

        (Score:2)
        by iangoldby (552781)
        It would make more sense to use some kind of chording configuration, to avoid the need to move your fingers from key to key. Six keys is enough, though there's no reason why all eight fingers shouldn't be used. In fact you might as well give a button to each thumb too, on the top of the device.

        The buttons would need to have enough resistance so that they can support the weight of the device without registering accidental presses.

        • Re:typing

          (Score:2)
          by digitig (1056110)

          It would make more sense to use some kind of chording configuration, to avoid the need to move your fingers from key to key.
          In theory, yes, but the public doesn't seem to like the idea. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter [wikipedia.org]. And there may be too much prior art to make patent grabs effective.

          • Re:typing

            (Score:2)
            by Simon Brooke (45012)

            In theory, yes, but the public doesn't seem to like the idea. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter [wikipedia.org]. And there may be too much prior art to make patent grabs effective.

            I have one of those - and yes, I can write with it (it does still work, which isn't bad for a twenty-year-old hand held device). Some people used to be pretty fast with them. With modern technology it could be made pretty small and light (the 1980s version is a bit of a brick. But I don't think it's the answer to the problem. I prefer handwriting recognition, which these days is getting pretty good - and we're not that far from talk-to-text being usably effective on handheld devices.

        • Re:typing

          (Score:1)
          by kat_skan (5219)

          The GKOS Sixback [gkos.com] is similar to what you describe. Their version actually goes a step further, and puts a two-button trackpoint mouse under your thumbs.

    • Re:typing

      (Score:2)
      by gamer4Life (803857)
      Actually not quite - at least one thumb and one finger has have firm pressure on the device to actually hold it.

      Typing would be quite difficult, especially since the lay out of the keyboard would be different, and the fact that different fingers would have to take turns holding the device up.

      Another thing - why is this under "Slashdot games"? This technology is definitely not limited to games.

      • Re:typing

        (Score:2)
        by phantomfive (622387)
        I'm not sure where you get this idea.....to test, I just picked up a book and imagined there was a keyboard on the back. I was able to support the book in my palms, thus leaving my fingers quite free. The book was somewhat heavier than the device, I would assume, so I don't think it would be too hard. Also, the keys on the device are in the same places your fingers would expect them to be if you can touch-type, so relearning the keyboard layout is not necessary.

    • Re:typing

      (Score:2)
      by Mattsson (105422)

      But the webcam on the back is great. I love it. It's like headgear for handhelds. Want to be the master of geekiness? Look no further my friend: the handheld that neither fits in your hand NOR your pocket! Useless you say? Yes, but it's cool!!
      My guess is that a market-version of this device would use a surface scanner [ubergizmo.com] on the back instead of a cam. =)

    • Re:typing

      (Score:1)
      by JasterBobaMereel (1102861)
      But have you tried touchtyping with both hands while holding it ...without dropping it ...?

      So you either learn to type all over again or use all ten fingers and drop it ...?

      Microsoft reinventing what Apple have already invented and then implementing it badly ...

       

      • Re:typing

        (Score:2)
        by phantomfive (622387)
        Yes, I have tried a similar experiment. It seemed obviously simple to me, but you guys keep saying it would be so difficult, that I decided to test to make sure. I picked up a book the size of the device and tried typing with it. I was able to hold the book in my palms, leaving my fingers free for typing. You thumbs are obviously on the front, so something different would have to be done about the spacebar. Otherwise, I found typing rather simple. You may disagree with me, but at least try a experiment before being so negative. Also, in the movie, they seemed quite able to support the device in a way that left their fingers free.

        • Re:typing

          (Score:1)
          by JasterBobaMereel (1102861)
          Maybe maybe not ....I'll see when the device exists ... ... But as you say the spacebar is a problem ...?

          and it does seem that Microsoft are shouting about a technology that is not yet usable (with the camera) and claim it is the technology that is holding it back ... but Apple has already demoed a device that does exactly what Microsoft says cannot be done?

    • Re:typing

      (Score:1, Troll)
      by egghat (73643)
      Well this is an idea from MS. What do you expect?

      Apple puts the touchscreen on the front, MS on the back. Which one ist more intuitive?

      Apple puts the help on Apple-?, MS on F1. ...

      So, a touchscreen at the back of the device only makes sense if your design of the GUI is horribly wrong.

      Aaam wait ... this one was from ...

      Ahh, makes sense after all.

      Bye egghat.

  • Apple patent

    (Score:2, Interesting)
    by m2943 (1140797)
    Apple filed a patent on that several months ago. Microsoft's implementation seems cumbersome, using a camera on the back (cleverly kept out of the frame). Apple can at least implement this with multi-touch.

    In any case, I don't see this going anywhere; it

    • Re:Apple patent

      (Score:4, Insightful)
      by msimm (580077) on Friday October 12, @03:08AM (#20950307)
      (http://www.last.fm/)
      Actually if you watch the video the demonstrator explains that the camera method is interim, claiming technological limitations. I think this technology would catch on pretty quickly considering we are pretty used to using our hands (..) to manipulate our environment. Watching it makes one think about how inefficient tactile, one-sided input is while your hands essentially fumble around at the back of the device.

      I don't know about the Apple patent but I'd be happy to see a technology like this make it into handheld devices where screen space is limited and dragging hands or fingers constantly over your workspace is less then optimal.

      • Re:Apple patent

        (Score:2)
        by teh kurisu (701097)
        I tried to watch the video. It just looked like one enormous goatse.cx reference to me. Fittingly enough, it's operated from behind.

      • Re:Apple patent

        (Score:1)
        by Fifth Earth (1172333)
        Personally, I'm reserving judgment. It seems like a cool idea, but the camera hanging off the back is a total no-go, and in my limited expertise I can't think of how else they could get reliable feedback on hand positions. "Technical limitations" sounds a lot like "we have no idea how to do this".

    • Re:

      (Score:2)
      by sqrt(2) (786011)
      Did everyone miss the part where the guy said future versions would use different sensors, not the cumbersome camera sticking out the back? There's all kinds of different ways you could sense the position and motion of the fingers, this is just a tech demo

    • touch AND pressure sensitive

      (Score:2)
      by shmlco (594907)
      Without the camera-on-a-stick it would probably have to be touch AND pressure sensitive. I'd doubt most alternative sensors could detect "hovering" fingers otherwise. With touch-and-pressure, you could hold it and not "click" until you pressed firmly enough.

      • Re:touch AND pressure sensitive

        (Score:2)
        by LarsG (31008)
        Add light sensitive (a scattering of photodiodes or similar). You don't care for stuff far away anyway; all you care about is changes in light/colour over areas of the back so no optics needed.

    • Re:

      (Score:2)
      by toQDuj (806112)
      Yes, this was my thought exactly: "Hang on, didn't Apple patent this already?"

    • Re:

      (Score:3, Insightful)
      by suv4x4 (956391)
      So basically let's bash Toshiba and Microsoft from trying to make an actual implementation of some obvious vagueness Apple patented.
      The basic idea is so obvious, even I came up with it few times when holding a touchscreen portable ("hmmm if the touch was o

      • Re:MS still copying apple

        (Score:2)
        by blhack (921171) *
        Yeah, and i thought of the same thing like 10 years ago when i was driving. "Hrm, if i put a keyboard on the back of my steering wheel, and turned it sideways, i could type without letting go of the wheel!"

        I call lemming law on you, oh mac fanboi!

    • Re:MS still copying apple

      (Score:4, Insightful)
      by wjsteele (255130) on Friday October 12, @06:13AM (#20950995)
      Actually, there is a big difference between the two. The Apple device simply implements the touch surface on the back of the computer. The Microsoft device does it on both sides AND, most importantly, has the ability to track the location of the fingers on the back and display them on the front, so the user get's good feedback as to where his fingers are actually in relation to the device.

      The Apple device doesn't do anything like that.

      Bill

    • Re:

      (Score:3, Informative)
      by MojoStan (776183)
      According to Mitsubishi's page on this project [merl.com]:
      • "As a two-sided touch screen, the LucidTouch is a direct extension of our two-sided touch table, published previously as Under the Table Interaction (reference below).
        ...[snip]...
        Publications:
        Wigdor, D.

  • Don't know how they'll get it to be a slim device

    (Score:3, Insightful)
    by Romancer (19668) <romancer.deathsdoor@com> on Friday October 12, @03:08AM (#20950301)
    (Last Journal: Sunday October 17 2004, @03:33AM)
    It corrently works by having a camera sitting behind it and viewing the fingers as they move. If they build the camera into the device it would have to have a very wide angle and be able to distinguish between the fingers and the background.

    • Re:Don't know how they'll get it to be a slim devi

      (Score:2)
      by eggnoglatte (1047660)
      You don't need camera optics for this application, since you are not interested in objects that are far away anyhow. Just sprinkle the backside of the device with a hundred or so individual photodiodes, and you get a (low res, but good enough) idea of where the fingers are (the resolution may seem low, but it will be enough if you make use of anatomical properties such as there are 4 fingers on each side, and their shadows extend more or less in a straight line from the boundaries).